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1. 1. datho | May 26, 2006 #

   hso,

   i must say that as a fervent atheist, i can’t deny some satisfaction in hearing more about the dark and questionnable past of the catholic church. however, i think that the way the information is presented manipulates the reader into agreeing with the writer at the cost of good journalism.

   first of, you’ve managed to leave out the fact that his father was a bitter enemy of nazism. secondly, this program was manadatory for all youths at that time. although being affiliated with the nazi machine is a horrible offense, i’m sure most of us can remember at least a couple of things that were truly regrettable at that age.

   why not highlight the fact that even after the youth program, he served in the german army. i think the point is more valid here because he was at a much older age where he could make his own decisions. even if he did not believe in the cause, i feel that it speaks badly of his strength of character. i may be able to forgive the average person, but the idea here is that he is considered a leader of millions. shouldn’t he be held to a higher ideal.

   and yes… why hasn’t he appologized? “to ere is human, to forgive, devine.” my advice to him is, practice what you preach!

1. 2. Adrian MacNair | May 29, 2006 #

   My grandfather fought in the German army. So did much of my other relatives from Germany. Are you saying that fighting for your nation speaks poorly of ones character? If yes, how so? I don’t believe anyone thinks that the strength of character of American soldiers in Iraq is weak; rather they have grievance with the regime.

   I would ask that you show my grandfather the respect he deserves, as he put his life on the line for his country, regardless of the “moral implications” of historical hindsight.

1. 3. datho | May 31, 2006 #

   With all due respect to your grandfather, he doesn’t hold the highest position of the Catholic church, with the highest expectations of virtue.

   At the risk of sounding patronizing, we all find ourselves in situations that test our strength of character. It is not these situations, but is in fact how we face them that defines us. If your grandfather considered himself a patriot and believed in his country and its leaders and was willing to die for it without know the implications, then I consider him better that most.

   My responce to the Iraq situation is that one can also chose the path of consciencous objection. I personnally think it takes more courage to have to lose one’s job, serve a prison term and stand to be socially outcasted for something you believe in than it is to pick up a gun and fight and receceive a metal for something you don’t.

   My stance is that not only should a Pope have had grievance with the regime, he should not have allowed himself to a part of it. Why? Because in order to hold that position, I feel that one must have a spotless resume. But then again, the catholic church has probably shed more blood than most armies in the history of civilization, hasn’t it?

1. 4. headsetop | May 31, 2006 #

   Numbering Jews like cattle and using them as lab rats does not warrent hindsight to decide if it were morally right or wrong. All of us have the ability to chose to do or not to, some of us do, some don’t.

   If the Pope (the person in contention) did not like Nazi’s, why did he not quit? Why did he serve despite disagreeing with them? Was he afraid? Or, did he not mind being there?

   Hindsight is something you realize after the fact, killing one individual and realizing it was wrong may qualify as hindsight, but killing millions hardly counts as one. Can the Janjaweed in Sudan or the Khmer Rouge say the atrocities they caused in hindsight might be wrong, hence excusable? Lets face it, if you are not owning up to whatever your ideologies are (good or bad), then you are not fit to lead, Hitler was probably a better leader than the Pope.

1. 5. mpaine | June 1, 2006 #

   Despite the Vatican’s claims, membership in the Hitler Youth was NOT mandatory. When Ratzinger was first installed last year, the European press went into the matter in some depth (unlike our nicely housebroken American media) and ran numerous op-ed pieces by historians and even by former members of the Hitler Youth to the effect that membership, during the time when Ratzinger joined and for boys of his age, was purely voluntary. There is also the fact that, as a seminarian, he had an expemption from duty in the German war machine; he left the seminary voluntarily to join and fight for his fuhrer.

1. 6. Adrian MacNair | June 2, 2006 #

   datho May 31 2006 / 1am said

   “But then again, the catholic church has probably shed more blood than most armies in the history of civilization, hasn’t it?”

   yeah, but give the muslims a chance to chance up…. they’re working on it.

   I just think Ratzinger has at least made an effort, and the fact that it doesn’t seem to be good enough is at least better than George W blaming everybody but himself for every fuckup he’s made. It does bother me that the pope blames God by asking “why”? as though the power eren’t with the people to stop the craziness all along….